don_gael: (Львов)
[personal profile] don_gael
Сейчас на форуме львовских знатоков идёт активная дискуссия по поводу возможности организации во Львове какого-нибудь из официальных турниров ЛУК. Правда, ситуация патовая. Почти патовая. Во Львове есть два клуба, которые могут стать организаторами. Президент первого наотрез отказался рассматривать возможность проведения турнира на русском языке. Второй клуб, как я понимаю, обладает недостаточными опытом и ресурсами, чтобы "потянуть" организацию.

На форуме предлагают провести опрос среди знатоков Украины по вопросу участия их в украиноязычном турнире, например, Олимпийском кубке ЛУК. Пока ничего не организовали, попробую такой неофициальный опрос провести я. Итак:

[Poll #1748173]

И вообще, что вы о такой инициативе думаете? Например, лично я вижу главную проблему в том, кто такой турнир будет редактировать. Из украиноязычных редакторов, допускаемых до работы с турнирами ЛУК, могу навскидку назвать только [livejournal.com profile] strelja, но тут лучше брать нескольких редакторов. Да и где взять столько вопросов?
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(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nekudza.livejournal.com
вообще-то, если помимо того, что пакет будет на украинском языке, о соревновании больше ничего неизвестно, то ехать как-то стремно, и дело тут не в украиснком языке.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Ну, я там играл на брейне. В принципе, организация турнира неплохая, хотя и попахивает добрым домашним ЧГК™. Думаю, если оба клуба вместе проведут - получится, как минимум, не хуже, чем в других городах.

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Date: 2011-06-02 12:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gilmorn-elemorn.livejournal.com
Я бы сыграла на украинском, он для меня второй родной

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
А опыт игры на украинском есть?

Я вот играл на украинском три раза в жизни. Свояк в Занках (слился в третьем круге, потому что нахватал минусов по собственной глупости, не из-за языковых проблем), фестиваль в Виннице (там был просто трэшевый пакет) и упомянутый выше брейн во Львове (а вот там было нормально).

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From: [identity profile] lyusha-d.livejournal.com
Давно пора. Давно пора перестать лизать жопу оккупантам (как бьі данное слово ни писалось - я не умею писать по-русски.)

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(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] st-bonifatius.livejournal.com
Наотрез отказался? Ну-ну.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saver-ag.livejournal.com
Слава Україні!

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] st-bonifatius.livejournal.com
Кекеке.

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(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saver-ag.livejournal.com
Список проголосовавших за последний пункт вышлите своему куратору отдельным файлом.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Разумеется. Вместе с нотариально заверенным скриншотом.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ruprekht.livejournal.com
идея мягко говоря не нова
был уже официальный турнир ЛУК на мове в тернополе
не помню - что то вроде кубка украины (если ничего не путаю - давненько это было)
вопросы читали на мове и раздавали после этого распечатку текста на русском языке
ничего страшного я в этом не увидел

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Ну, это создаёт дополнительную проблему для редакторов. Потому что никаких вопросов в стиле "ведущему - кавычки не озвучивать" и так далее.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paprika9.livejournal.com
Ну ти розумієш, шо в мене реакція прогнозована і однозначна)

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(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nekudza.livejournal.com
дискуссию не видно же

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 12:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
А зарегиться - слабо?

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mainkaif.livejournal.com
Поиграть, то конечно, интересный опыт, но не официальный турнир.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 01:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Ну ведь надо же дать западным командам шанс.

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] koenig-away.livejournal.com
Я б поиграл, хехе.
Может, если в будущем году Опен будет - выберусь.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 01:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Так ОК ЛУК тоже открытый. Если таки решат проводить во Львове - приезжай.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theindifferent.livejournal.com
Мечтаю сыграть такой турнир только ради того, чтобы увидеть, как в коммунити chgk_ua Сидоров, обсуждая пакет, говорит, что "дана конструкція непритаманна українській мові, вона є штучною і ріже око".

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
А думаешь, не будет говорить? ;))

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vumnik.livejournal.com
1. Как минимум один официальный взрослый турнир ЛУК (не входящий в вертикаль 2 лига - ВПЛП - Чемпионат мира) должен проводиться на украинском языке. Для билингвальной по сути страны это норма. Для такого турнира лучше всего подходят КУ или ОК ЛУК, являющиеся самостоятельными вертикалями. Для начала можно объявить ОК ЛУК-2011 во Львое экспериментальным и посмотреть, что получится.

2. По авторам и редакторам. Таковые есть и в достаточном количестве, образцы их работы можно посмотреть здесь:
http://www.bazaua.org.ua/tournaments.php?action=allT
Проблема - в том, что большинство из них сами захотят сыграть...

В общем, проблема вопросников/редакторов решается просто: обычные редакторы делают пакет, которы просто переводится на украинский. Около 25% вопросов "погибнут", але то таке.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 01:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Да, это было бы интересно.

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petrowsky.livejournal.com
Я бы съездил, и сыграл - но только в качестве "домашнего ЧГК" (типа Винницы). Официальные турниры по ЧГК должны проводиться на международном языке этой игры и на родном языке большинства жителей Украины. То есть, на русском.
Кстати, что это у тебя за припадочное люша_д в комментах? Оно точно в ЧГК играет?

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] st-bonifatius.livejournal.com
Сева, ну, ты хотя бы с коня слез, входя в комменты. Барышня шутит и даже этого не скрывает.
Первый абзац поддерживаю.

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petrowsky.livejournal.com
Да, и кстати, в любых турнирах, организованных этим львивськым клюбом, руководитель которого "наотрез отказался рассматривать возможность проведения турнира на русском языке" я бы участвовать не стал. Даже в "добром домашнем".
Пусть дрочит на национальни цинности без моего участия.

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Date: 2011-06-02 01:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vumnik.livejournal.com
"Ценности" тут ни при чём. Надо просто принять к сведению тот простой факт, что украинский язык (помимо того, что является государственным) является родным (а также языком повседневного общения) для примерно половины граждан Украины плюс-минус 10%.

В этих условиях ЛУК, как всеукраинская общественная организация, занимающаяся интеллектуальными играми, не может игнорировать законные интересы украиноязычных игроков. По любому, теперешняя ниша, занимаемая украиноязычными турнирами по ИИ (местные, региональные турниры и часть синхрона ЛУК), непропорциональна мала.

Вывод: как минимум один всеукраинский турнир на украинском языке проводить надо.

ЗЫ. "Цинности" тут совершенно ни при чём: идут переговоры, и проводиторы имеют полное право выставлять условия. Кстати, демонстрировать пещерный шовинизм интеллигентному человеку вообще как-то дико... Кстати, рискну заявить, что Люша гораздо тебя сильнее как игрок.

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Date: 2011-06-02 02:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shvedka.livejournal.com
Вынесу свое мнение в коммент верхнего уровня, раз уж пошла такая пьянка.

Але, люди, опомнитесь! Эта страна называется Украина. Государственный язык в ней - украинский. ЛУК - это Лига УКРАИНСКИХ Клубов. Какого хрена вообше такие вопросы возникают - люди в своем полном и абсолютном праве проводить турнир на украинском языке. По большому счеты это МЫ должны спрашивать, не мешаем ли мы им своим русским. О каком "Официальные турниры ЛУК должны проводиться только на русском языке" вообще идет речь?

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Date: 2011-06-02 02:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lyusha-d.livejournal.com
(тролль моуд оф, есличё)
+стопиццот

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Date: 2011-06-02 02:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eagleowl81.livejournal.com
Пмсм, до тех пор, пока чемпионат мира проводится на русском языке, все официальные турниры ЛУК должны играться на русском. Даже не выводящие напрямую.
Если вопрос о своих предпочтениях, то я на всеукраинские соревнования не езжу, но на украинском ничего бы играть не стал - на любом уровне, городском или фестивальном.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 02:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] firben.livejournal.com
Ну, если пакет будет писать не Башук, а хороший укроредактор, то я бы поиграл. Мову понимаю нормально, только говорить на ней плохо выходит, русизмы в голову лезут постоянно. Думаю, во время минуты обсуждения это не особо помешает. Так что вопрос скорее в "Доехать до Львова". Это всё же нам совсем не ближний свет.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sllonja.livejournal.com
Думаешь, если пакет сделает просто хороший редактор, а потом его переведут на мову, это будет не то?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-02 05:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2011-06-02 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mavis-black.livejournal.com
по-моему, не стоит в принципе иметь дело с нетерпимым и "наотрезным" организатором, предлагающим такие острые и дискуссионные условия

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mavis-black.livejournal.com
кстати, помимо [livejournal.com profile] strelja есть еще незабвенный [livejournal.com profile] anatoliy_teklyk

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
О да! Я так и представляю, как украинские топ-команды начинают любить траву! :))

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] holden-77.livejournal.com
А есть ли какой-то опыт? Проводилось ли что-то подобное скажем в Узбекистане или в Израиле? Ну или где-то еще. Или там даже не возникает подобных дискуссий?

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shvedka.livejournal.com
Да, безусловно, проводится во многих странах и дискуссий не возникает.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-02 03:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2011-06-02 03:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vin-terfresh.livejournal.com
Добавить в офииальную вертикаль дополнительный турнир на украинском языке, и пусть его играет, кто хочет.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petrowsky.livejournal.com
Кстати, здравая мысль. Вот на такой бы я съездил.

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Date: 2011-06-02 03:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orkosam.livejournal.com
О та - дайош проведення Теклюкіади у Львові як етап ОК ЛУК))))

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tony-smile.livejournal.com
было бы желание, а вопросы и редакторы найдутся
на западной Украине регулярно и с удовольствием играют пакеты на украинском, при чём не только в вышке или 1-2 лиге, а и другие, знакомые многим, турниры (Кубок Західої України, Кубок Герцогів, Кубок Дракона).

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Не сомневаюсь, но достаточного ли качества пакеты этих турниров?

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From: [identity profile] tony-smile.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-02 04:04 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2011-06-02 03:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nekudza-max.livejournal.com
Не вижу абсолютно ничего зазорного в том, чтобы сыграть _на нейтрально-тематическом_ турнире пакет на украинском языке. Статус турнира при этом не имеет значения.

(no subject)

Date: 2011-06-02 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] don-gael.livejournal.com
Так фишка именно в том, чтобы этот турнир был официальным.

(no subject)

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